give security tasers back #34888
give security tasers back #34888
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Changes: No C#
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Remove the disablers |
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Definitely on the fence about this myself, but I do agree traitors need to be quieter/less overt about their play. Would also need some balance so you can't just tasecuff a ninja or nukie. |
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nukies have teammates to pull them back and ninjas are hilariously overpowered/should be playing stealthy |
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I suppose it does punish overextending, but I can see situations in which security makes a taser firing line and stuncuffs all 5 of them. This still requires the miracle of coordination. |
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Interesting to see how it would go with mob collision as well. |
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i dont intend to balance the game on the hypothetical situation that security makes a taser firingline and all of the nukies happen to be in line of sight of it and all get simultaneously stuncuffed |
but you do intend to balance the game on a hypothetical situation that security gets wiped by murderboning antags and the idea that antags are too easy to murderbone on |
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Make disablers hitscan |
yes, because traitor is the majority of the rounds, and the problem is so bad we have literal rules in place to limit how hard they can win. |
slarticodefast
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the
S: Undergoing Maintainer Discussion
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Opened a maintainer discussion for this one. |
Tasers do not only affect power gaming murderboning antags, but people who don't do that too. Who's going to stop a security officer from tasing someone who's murdered one person, not murderbone or anything. The person has no chance to resist or run away, and the secoff is detaining someone in one (1) click. That doesn't sound very fair to me. Does it sound fair to you? |
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yes because they should have not gotten caught, skill issue |
This is the hard work fallacy and it inclines me to believe that you're not arguing in good faith and that you'll push this through whether I provide good reason or not. Like what recently happened with your unpopular lecter resprite. |
I didn't push that through. I was the only active art director at the time since devi was away, so sloth just merged it. It was reverted before it ever even hit servers. |
Brother I don't think you've changed.
As opposed to no one being able to stop a traitor going loud? |
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Are tasers marked under the contra system? Whatever they are I'd vote that they should be security only, leaving disablers as security and command. |
well, to assume the position of Emisse, why can't Security just stun them with what they have already or use lethals themself? That sounds like a skill issue. |
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If this proves too strong again, maybe tasers as a sci research, so Sec has something to nag Sci to get. |
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rubber bullets No too strong, but tasers NO not too strong |
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Some comments I'd like to state as someone who thinks security definitely needs to be buffed but also thinks that a taser is a bit too far. A lot of times I see security get wiped out it's because they're:
Of course this aren't the only scenarios, but giving secoffs a taser isn't going to really help them if these are the main issues as:
These are also issues that are hard to address because you can't force people to play security, you can't force security to be good, and you can't force security to communicate.
Getting caught is part of the game and it's fun, it's why I never buy the storage implant because it's a super easy I win button. Some of my favorite games I got caught and had to play around it, dodging disablers and evading security tasers hurt the push and pull of that a lot. Bolas were already nerfed because an insta stun was too easy, with tasers you can now bola and basically get a free stuncuff. As for what I would change to make security better. Speaking of bolas, make them easier for secoffs to get. Give secoffs magboots in the armory or secfab. Give secoffs trackers roundstart. Make this disabler easier to use. Give security some real fucking explosive resistance for their grenades. I think security HAS the tools to deal with syndie threats it's just they don't use them because there's some wall in game design that halts them from using those tools. Giving sec bolas and making stingers usable is huge. Some other notes:
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They were a T3 sci research but were removed because they were too strong, this would also make it WAY easier for antags to get them. |
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As a sec player this PR is 'interesting'
Idk about tasers but I would personally benefit from increased recharger speeds (#32809), increased disabler capacity, some sort of EMP rework, smaller hardsuit slowdowns (sec hardsuit has 25% slowdown) |
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I'd like if the Taser was Warden ONLY (not sec or command, WARDEN) |
Considering the amount of shitters that get brigged, a warden-only taser would work |
My only worry is that this would contribute to more wardenloose scenarios, but yeah warden needs more tools to deal with people being shitters in security. It being restricted to warden could work. |
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We also had this PR regarding tasers #23086 |
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Honestly i think seeing how tasers do in the current metas and gameplay would be a good idea so i think this PR is good. |
except thats exactly what will happen. 3 secoffs with tasers can easily take out an entire 5 man nukie team in 2 seconds now. |
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I think as of now antags (stealth antags that is, being traitors which is the most common gamemode) are too powerful in comparison to sec and sec should actually be something to be feared by antags to some degree and sec catching up to you should be far more punishing, and who knows, taking down a security officer at more risk to yourself may just make it all the more rewarding. Do I think it will be balanced? nah |
also as an admin its really not hypothetical |
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If the taser was one per station, and was warden only (1 on warden locker), it solve most of the issues of "thieves gloves cadet" scenario, gives the warden something to control howdy prisoners and, ideially, warden isn't leaving sec/armoury. |
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emp implants have fuck all range so they have no effect on taser |
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Its been mentioned before but I think this is more of a security skill issue problem than a sec being too weak problem. You also have to think about how this could be abused in minor altercations against security, and gives the more heavy-handed secoffs a tool that can easily be abused against normal crew. Additionally this will make being an open-antag nearly impossible. |
i strongly agree. i think the bigger issue here that people either can't or dont want to deal with is the fact that simply put, a lot of people don't like playing sec, and a lot of the ones that do aren't the best players skill wise. neither of these issues will be fixed no matter how busted you make sec's kit, and as has already been said, making their kit too strong will have the side effect of making those same weapons all the worse if an antag gets them. if the issue is that antags are too often rolling over sec and taking over the whole station, giving them the ability to get a 1 tap ranged stun by just thief gloving a sec cadet is definitely not the right answer. |
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While I do agree with the reasoning provided, I think that simply readding tasers back without any tweaks is a bad approach.
Giving tasers a big stamina damage enough for soft stamina crit on 1st hit (and making it stun the person fully on 2 shots) would be a very good adjustment. |
Its already extremely difficult to escape perma on many maps, I don't think its needs to be made even harder. |
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I ain't reading allat. Sorry, not sorry. Giving tasers to sec could potentialy stop murderboning antags. It will, however, also impact stealthy antags, because now avoiding getting arrested is even harder. A better way to solve this would be to nerf the problematic antags, not to buff security causing even more power creep. Don't like when traitors go loud? I dunno, maybe don't let them purchase a fucking China Lake of all things? |
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The Mk 58 in question: |
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i know this PR is getting discussion locked i agree with emisse on this all antags except thief (who really shouldn't be getting tased) have ways to deal with this |
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I feel the tazer would need a bit of rework to prevent it from trivializing nukies and other big threats, at the moment it is arguably the strongest weapon in the game. Otherwise, sounds like a neat change, though I don't see why we need a separate tazer and disabler. |
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after doing some more thinking, heres what i think this change will do for all of the major antags space dragons, rat kings, and zombies: no meaningful change, zombies might get a slight nerf but most II's strat is just to explode chem or murder 5 tiders in maints anyway so i dont see it being a huge change. revs: will literally never ever lose again. im being 100% serious. this is a huge, enormous rev buff. the taser works well against 1-2 elite enemies, it does not work well against hordes of tiders with toolboxes, so it will barely help sec in revs. on the other hand, revs getting a single taser is basically an instant game over. cargo revs [which were already insanely op] are now even stronger. just buy a few sectech restocks and boom, 5 revs with tasers. theres no way to beat that. but even barring that, revs getting the drop on a single cadet and getting his taser will cause a snowball that will be basically impossible to stop once started. revs will literally never lose again. nukies: pretty hard nerf for nukies. ESPECIALLY loneops, who were already prone to getting their asses kicked, are now basically a non threat. just 1 cadet with a taser can put down nearly any loneop strat other than reinforcement spamming monkeys or cats. warops has the same issue. emisse said she didnt want to balance around a firing line of people with tasers, but thats exactly what warops will become. warops declared? buy 10 sectech restocks and when the nukies show up hit them with a barrage of tasertiders. the only real counters would be hyperzine spam or assault borg spam. so every warops would just be buying 3 assault borgs and letting them do all the killing or having 1-2 robust nukies run around high on hyperzine while the rest stay back. normal ops would have a less severe nerf, but still pretty bad. even if the nukies stay together its not hard to suppress them briefly while one guy tasercuffs a single nukie and pulls him away, do that 2-3 times and youve already won. and if the op goes on, then yes, cargo can just buy more tasers and have a firing line of cargo techs stun all the nukies at once. again. finally, we get to the reason for the pr: traitors. the stated reason for this change is to prevent the traitor strat of ganging up and taking over the station, presumably to encourage the inverse of more solo traitors or 2 man pairs. but by now it should be clear why the opposite will happen. traitor gangs will become all the more viable for the same reasons stated under revs, with the added bonus of traitors getting thieves gloves and radio jammers, so whats to stop a team of 3 traitors from buying those two things and having one guy distract an isolated secoff while the other pickpockets him then immediately downs him with his own taser. rinse and repeat and few times and sec is gone. counterplay will be very difficult because traitors can use gurella tactics. you dont know what tider has a taser in his pocket until hes already shot you with it, and since its a one hit that means youre already fucked. double so if he got a radio jammer. by contrast, solo traitor strats will become less appealing, knowing that any joe cadet who happens by can instantly shut you down with no real counterplay. the emp range isnt big enough to be a realistic counter to a ranged stunner, and even if it was, do you really want the emp to be a required buy for basically every traitor every round? so overall, yeah, not in favor of this pr. |
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I feel like it should treated be two sided coin. Nothing stops Traitors/nukies from getting the taser knowing there is no counterplay for nocturine and then proceeding to trivially murderboning entire station... |
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very funny idea that sec would for some reason not use the instant stun magic taser on thieves, which are already walking pinatas |
To help with that, there could be something like it requiring special recharger mapped in warden's office that's not easy to remove (really slow pulling speed when unanchored) so it'll dissuade trying to take the Taser anywhere outside Security department, except for special circumstances (Nukies) |
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They should not be in the sec vend. They should be in safes in the armoury or sec lockers in sec (NOT IN CHECKPOINTS). It would be absurd if any cargo tech could get their hands on a taser by buying a secvend refill. |
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Guys maybe adding a gun that defeats anyone in a single hit isn’t a good idea balance wise. |
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no think of the evil murderboning syndies |
If this gets merged I’ll return to wizden and use it to murderbone on god. All it takes is a single banana peel and now the antag has the one shot gun |
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Closing in favor of #34890 |
As it is now, antags are too easy to murderbone on. Admins ban murderboning antags. Security gets wiped routinely by traitors. This solves all of the above issues by letting security be powerful and forcing antags to have to be more careful/play better.
I expect this pr to be a shitstorm so please be civil.
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