No uppercase Old Hungarian ligatures

[dscorbett]

Font

NotoSansOldHungarian-Regular.ttf

Where the font came from, and when

Site: https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/blob/d7af81e614086435102cca95961b141b3530a027/hinted/NotoSansOldHungarian-Regular.ttf
Date: 2018-10-31

Font version

Version 2.000;GOOG;noto-source:20181019:f8f3770

Issue

Ligatures are only available for lowercase letters.

Character data

𐲓‍𐲮𐳓‍𐳮
U+10C93 OLD HUNGARIAN CAPITAL LETTER EK
U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER
U+10CAE OLD HUNGARIAN CAPITAL LETTER EV
U+10CD3 OLD HUNGARIAN SMALL LETTER EK
U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER
U+10CEE OLD HUNGARIAN SMALL LETTER EV

Screenshot

[ghost]

There is a must to keep opened this Issue?

[ghost]

@dscorbett
There is a must to be opened this Issue?

[dscorbett]

What does that mean?

[ghost]

@dscorbett
Is it resolved, will be resolved, or never will be resolved?
If it fixed, or never will be fixed, please close. If it will be fixed, don't close.
@marekjez86 ?

[ghost]

@dscorbett
I don't remember, that Old Hungarian Q letter exists in UNICODE standard.

[ghost]

@dscorbett
I think, @marekjez86 fixed the bugs.

[ghost]

@dscorbett
Close this Issue, and forget the letter Old Hungarian Q or Kv, Please! It doesn't existed during the history.
Forget please the ligatures, these are ad-hoc letters.

[ghost]

Ups! I wrote "doesn't existed" instead of " "did not exist"

[ghost]

@dscorbett
Ligatures in Old Hungarian letters are not standardized in UNICODE. Making ligatures on hand-made text is possible, but it can increase the variants of glyphs used on PC.
For example an Old Hungarian letter can be a full surname.
Old Hungarian letters, as its name means, user for Hungarian text.
Letter Q is wasn't used during the history as a Old Hungarian letter, because Latin texts were used only f.e. by lawyers or texts of bills.
I am developing a spellchecker, non Hungarian words I am accepting written Latin letters, as in f.e. Arabic text do.
Did you heard f.e. Cyrillic letter Q?
I think, this issue need to be closed.
Thanks.

[ghost]

@marekjez86
Please read my comment above, and close it if you have rigths for.

[ghost]

@dscorbett
@marekjez86
I opened your font below, and opened a ligature property page.
https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/blob/master/hinted/NotoSansOldHungarian/NotoSansOldHungarian-Regular.ttf

On the screenshot you can see, that I talked about: However the ligatures are named, no legal code point assigned to. When in a font a character does not linked to a code point, invisible that character. It visible only editing phase.
If you don't believe me, that's your mistake.

[ghost]

@dscorbett
@marekjez86
I wouldn't like that you work unnecessary

[ghost]

@marekjez86 @dscorbett @google-admin
I resolve this issue. I will working on uppercase ligatures, but I won't add automatic ligature definitions, because that makes spelling problems. See issue notofonts/old-hungarian#8

[ghost]

@dscorbett
@marekjez86
I wrote before I resolve it. But I can't. I do not understand this kind of source code style.

[dscorbett]

See notofonts/old-hungarian#9 for a subset of this issue.

[ghost]

@nizarsq Nizar, could you do this modifications, too? The issue notofonts/old-hungarian#9 is a subset of this issue, as David signed.

[ghost]

@dscorbett @marekjez86 David, Marek, first I didn't know how do ligatures work. Now I understand. So I'm sorry.

[ghost]

@nizarsq Nizar, you promissed before, you will resolve notofonts/old-hungarian#9 . The Issue notofonts/old-hungarian#9 is a subset of this Issue.
We, with @dscorbett waiting for you!

[ghost]

@nizarsq Nizar, I'm waiting for you to resolve this issue or, at least issue notofonts/old-hungarian#9 ,too! If you will or will not to do this modifications in the near future, please drop me a quick response for this comment.

[ghost]

@marekjez86
Could it get higher priority? It was opened on november 1 2018 . More than two years ago. Using ligatures without those capital version quite unconfortable, I think.

[ghost]

@nizarsq Nizar, you don't need to do anything, one of my friends working on it. He can work quickly.

[ghost]

@Kixidevel Could your friend wait, until I finish the repair the issue notofonts/noto-fonts#1925 ? I think about that, the text is jumping during typing.

[ghost]

@Kixidevel It isn't a good idea to upload an another person's work in your fork, I think.
Were you thinking about this before?

[ghost]

@marekjez86 @dscorbett @google-admin @brawer
The problem isn't that, Noto-fonts adopt ligatures or doesn't do that. In Old Hungarian texts using ligatures is only possibilities, not requirements. There are some basic ligatures, that are missing. For example ligature "el" exists, but ligature "él" ("he/she lives") doesn't exist. The combination of ligatures depends on the user's imagination. Somebody wrote me they planned 60 ligatures Somebody wrote me, he has a ligature database with about 300 ligatures.
My question is: Noto fonts really needs incomplete basic ligatures, or needs a ligature "boom"?

[ghost]

@dscorbett David, there are lots of ligatures, thats missing, for example "lo" exists (it doesn't means anything itself), but "ló" ("horse") missing. Missing "ti" (plural form of "you") "te" (singular form of "you") "mi" ("we") etc. Letter-like "qu", "x", "w" ligatures exist for foreign words, but letter-like ligature "y" for foreign words doesn't exist.

Géza Ferenci archaelogist, historian, museum director wrote, that talking about historical Old Hungarian scripts until 1802. year.

Finally, Until 1802 in Old Hungarian texts didn't use ligatures, like "qu", "x" and letters "y" and "w".

[ghost]

@dscorbett
Here is the correct for, of ligature "ló" :

In the Old Hungarian text, written without ligatures the following "ligatures" replaceable: "w" to "v","x" to "k"+"sz", "qu" to "k"+"v", "y"to "j" or "i" (the "y" transformation depending on the word), as LibreOffice's modern Latin based Hungarian to Old Hungarian translator do!

[ghost]

@marekjez86 Marek, I must to create all variants of a vowel paired with a consonant, and a consonant paired to a vowel, or I must to do halwork?

[tamasbartos]

@dscorbett András Tisza's opinion that no ligatures required unless we include all useful ligatures.

[tamasbartos]

@dscorbett Neither Unicode standard, nor Interrnational nor Hungarian National standards do not contain Old Hungarian ligatures. International standard is "ISO/IEC 10646:2020" , Hungarian National standard is "MSZ ISO/IEC 10646:2018" (I have no rights to publish the International and Hungarian National standards' contents )

[robihorvath]

@dscorbett Do you think about full capital ligatures (all members are capital) or semi-capital ligatures (first letter is capital, the other is low-letters). I think about for example "csin" (ecs+i+en) ligature.

[dscorbett]

I’ve submitted feedback to Unicode asking for clarification.

[robihorvath]

@dscorbett In my opinion is that, semi-capital ligatures are better choice, if we want to use the them in begining of a sentence, but that's true, it wasn't used on that way during the history. Full-capital ligatures would be useful, when we want to use abbreviations.The last idea is not a good idea, because of that the abbrevations' letter-members (like MTA) means different words (Magyar Tudományos Akadémia.)
So it would be better choice semi-capital ligatures.

[robihorvath]

I’ve submitted feedback to Unicode asking for clarification.

@dscorbett You are misled again! There are no Unicode document are written about capital ligatures! Unicode never will be answer your feedback!

[robihorvath]

I’ve submitted feedback to Unicode asking for clarification.

Moreover, if this issue was requested by the Hungarian users I am thinking of, they will not respond. There is an app on "Google play" that they can use make money. The "developers" name is "Tortabevonó". Their target is that, Noto Old Hungarian font will be made as later as possible. I think they requested issue #1374 . That was the reason, that Noto Old Hungarian UI was developed: an useable Old Hungarian font, which Unicode conform, and that would be closed quickly.

[rovasinfo]

These ligatures are requested by the Hungarian community, as you can see on this agreement.

Source: ISBN 978-963-87967-5-2 p257, 259