From 421e26ba898afb7c13b84bc7e8e6a963c1a9f398 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jameson Lopp Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:50:28 -0400 Subject: [PATCH] add transcript --- ...Bitcoin-Making_Self_Custody_Mainstream.txt | 802 ++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 802 insertions(+) create mode 100644 transcripts/interviews/Simply_Bitcoin-Making_Self_Custody_Mainstream.txt diff --git a/transcripts/interviews/Simply_Bitcoin-Making_Self_Custody_Mainstream.txt b/transcripts/interviews/Simply_Bitcoin-Making_Self_Custody_Mainstream.txt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..399c51cf --- /dev/null +++ b/transcripts/interviews/Simply_Bitcoin-Making_Self_Custody_Mainstream.txt @@ -0,0 +1,802 @@ +Hello, everybody. +Welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL. +Today we have a very special guest, Jameson Lopp. +Jameson Lopp is the co-founder and chief security officer over at Casa. +Before we jump into the show, I do want to give a quick shout out to the Bitcoin company +that makes this show possible. +Of course, I'm talking about Bitcoin Well, Bitcoin Well is the best place to build your +automatic self-custody Bitcoin stack. +It's publicly traded company coming out of Canada that recently expanded to all 50 US +states. +It is self-custody by default, meaning you can't buy Bitcoin on Bitcoin Well unless you're +going to take self-custody. +So check out BitcoinWell.com today and no more delay. +Let's bring up Jameson up on stage. +Jameson, I'm so happy that you're joining us today. +I've been trying to get you on the show for a very long time, so I'm very hyped that you +agreed and it's truly an honor. +You bet. +Is this sufficiently IRL? +I feel like I'm still in cyberspace. +Yeah, I mean, it is because, you know what, compared to our live show, which is a little +bit more scripted and this is more kind of conversational, maybe it's semi IRL to be +safe. +I guess. +Fair enough. +Yeah. +I mean, I like to do it live. +Absolutely. +Live. +Live makes it a little bit more spontaneous. +Right. +So anyway, so Jameson, the reason I reached out to you is you came out with this article +recently, March 24th, 2024. +And the headline of the article is Congress is unconstitutionally criminalizing privacy. +And this is actually something that we've been covering personally on Simply Bitcoin +live for quite a while now. +And it seems like the Fourth Amendment has completely been thrown out the window. +You know, the recent FinCEN proposal that, you know, Elizabeth Warren took advantage +of the, you know, the tragedy that's going on in Gaza and Palestine and Israel. +And to, you know, try to make certain moves. +Her bill in Congress, which has 20 senators signed up to it, including two Republicans, +which would be, to use Pierre Richard's own words, a de facto ban on Bitcoin mining in +the U.S. +The pressure that was put on the FinCEN with that crazy proposal. +Basically every single address had to be reported. +You know, basically it would affect lightning as well. +And then, you know, the the congressional testimony by Tom Emmer, where he got the head +of the FinCEN to admit that terrorists prefer using the traditional financial system. +But of course, none of these proposals, none of these laws are ever walked back. +Right. +So clearly this is something that you've been on top of as well. +So I just want to get your thoughts on it. +Well kind of. +I mean, really, like you were speaking to, these attacks are coming from many different +sides. +And unless you're a lawyer who specializes in cover, none of us really even have enough +time to stay on top of all these things, especially if you're talking about trying to stay on +top of all of the laws and changes. +And so this one in particular, this Corporate Transparency Act that I just wrote about a +few weeks ago, it had been in the works for many years. +I mean, I think it was originally proposed back in 2019, if not earlier. +And it just took them a number of years before the proposed change got rammed through. +And in this particular case, it got rammed through with the National Defense Authorization +Act, which is basically one of those 1500 page, you have to pass it or else everything +shuts down type of bills. +So when people have something that they want to get passed, they try to shove it all into +this omnibus bill and then hope that nobody reads the multi-thousand page bill. +And so I don't think I even heard about the Corporate Transparency Act until maybe late +last year, where it had already been passed several years ago, but it wasn't going into +effect until January 1st of this year. +And so I really started hearing about it this year because I have at least 10 different +corporations that I operate for a variety of different purposes, investments, asset +ownership, especially privacy around asset holdings, real estate vehicles, stuff like +that. +And so basically I started getting hit up by all my different attorneys and other legal +entities that are managing my various companies and assets, because they're basically telling +me, "Hey, we need you to go fill out all of this paperwork by the end of the year for +all of your corporations, otherwise," I think at least in some of the cases they were threatening +to drop me as a client if I was not in compliance. +So it started to affect me personally, and I started looking into this. +And then when we saw this judgment come out recently that it was unconstitutional, I was +like, "Hooray, I won't have to do any of this bullshit." +But then I read that, "No, I still have to do it anyways because FinCEN is saying that +they're going to enforce the unconstitutional law." +So that's what really threw me for a loop and got me to write about this. +And I mean, we've seen many different outrageous and sometimes hypocritical things coming out +of authoritarian land. +But when it gets this far, and I'm actually facing having to jump through a bunch of hoops +in order to comply with a law that has already been deemed unconstitutional, the level of +ridiculousness just goes through the roof to the point of like, "I'm going to shout +it out." +It seems like you cut off there for a sec. +I kind of wanted to read some of this, what some of the consequences are of the "noncompliance." +So it says civil penalties of up to $500 per day, criminal fines of up to $10,000 and imprisonment +for up to two years. +So I mean, this is pretty, you mentioned it, right? +It's unconstitutional. +What's the fourth amendment, right? +No unreasonable search and seizure. +I think this is unreasonable to say the least. +But if it was already deemed unconstitutional, how do they keep getting away with this anyways? +Well, the legal system is really complicated, right? +I'm not a lawyer. +I've only dabbled in trying to follow some of the legal cases in this space over recent +years. +And especially on the civil side of things, like following a lot of the Craig Wright shenanigans, +I've certainly lost a lot more faith in our legal system than even the modicum of faith +that I had in [inaudible] to start with [inaudible] justice as a five-year deal was not fun, was +not something that I recommend going through, but I think the short version is that there's +so much complexity within the legal system that it's almost never over as long as someone +who is fighting a battle within the legal system is willing to continue devoting resources +to fighting. +Yeah, absolutely. +And also, you know, there's something that me and my co-host were kind of theorizing +about just essentially a lot of these regulations, it's almost as if they're structured in a +way where they're specifically being hostile towards not only the industry, but the technology +itself. +And that was kind of a theory that we had for, you know, a couple months, right? +I mentioned the Elizabeth Warren proposal earlier in your specific case in this piece, +right? +It's another, of course, proposal or recommendation from the FinCEN. +But what was interesting to me is yesterday during the Bitcoin Policy Institute Summit, +we had a US Senator that basically said the choir part out loud. +I actually have the clip, it's about a minute or two long, so I'm going to play it and then +we'll talk about it. +Sure. +So, the state of play on Capitol Hill is, I think, best explained by what I see as the +overarching motivations. +And in this administration, there are a number of high-ranking policy positions that are +held by people who are threatened by Bitcoin because they know they can't control it. +They know it's decentralized. +They know its potential. +And these are people that are so wedded to the government being in control of the money, +how it's spent, how it's used, that they find it threatening, that something exists that +they can't control. +And so, with that policy overarching motivation, we're seeing things like a proposed 30% tax +on Bitcoin mining. +We're seeing things like that truly odd regulatory overreach by the EIA, Energy Information Administration +over at Energy, to send out questionnaires about mining consumption of energy that was +just egregious. +And so, these are the policy headwinds that the Bitcoin world is facing right now. +And it's really, I think, entirely based on this administration's fear of things they +can't control. +So, what's your take on that? +I mean, this is something, at least I'll speak for myself and my co-host Opti, basically, +we didn't find a smoking gun, but for me, it just seemed like, how do I put this in +a nice way? +It just seemed like their intention, I questioned their intentions and their motives. +So, someone who has been in this space for quite a long time, I would say is successful +in his own right, Lopp, what's your take on this? +I mean, it's a center saying this, so obviously it holds a little bit of weight. +What's your take? +Yeah, I mean, this is nothing new. +Government is, by design, an authoritarian entity, and it seeks to have as much control +as possible over everything within its domain. +Of course, when we talk about the United States, basically, the United States considers the +entire world to be its domain, so things get even trickier there as the United States tries +to exert its control and influence in a variety of different ways, regardless of what jurisdiction +you're in, especially by claiming, in many cases, that if you even interact with United +States citizens, that you're going to fall under their sphere of influence in a variety +of different regulatory ways. +So it's not anything, I think, against Bitcoin in particular. +Government is afraid of any technology that threatens its ability to observe, to surveil, +and therefore to control the actions of the people within its sphere of influence. +So we're seeing similar types of ridiculous proposals to strip people's privacy away, +for example, even proposals to basically KYC your very internet connection, just to make +sure that anyone who goes to an adult website is actually an adult, for example. +So this type of cat-and-mouse game is going to continue, I think, in perpetuity, that +we continue to invent technologies that help us evade government and other authoritarian +surveillance regimes, and then they react, and this type of battle, I think, is never +really going to end. +And so anyone who really cares about it, I think, should be paying some amount of attention +to it, and be willing to put some -- a big advocate of things -- actually powerful, and +make it more difficult for the authorities to exert control over you. +But here we are, just talking about it in general is one way that we're contributing +to this, you know, getting awareness out there. +So it's interesting the way that you approach it, which is basically kind of like an arms +race in a way, right? +You know, you're just trying to like constantly trying to stay ahead of the curve, and maybe +I'm naive to think this, but I've come to this kind of this realization that current +U.S. sanction policy and current like how the government views the relationship with +money in a way is kind of incompatible with how Bitcoin works in the sense that, you know, +if enough of the populace adopts Bitcoin and they're using it for, you know, transacting, +their ways of controlling the money flows are going to be severely diminished, if not, +you know, like, they're not going to be able to assert as much control as they once have +had in the past. +So I mean, won't there reach like kind of like a breaking point, in a sense, where, +you know, it either goes one way or goes the other way, like, are we going to go the route +of, you know, communist China, are we going to go the route of what this country was originally +founded on, which we've completely gone away from? +So is there like an inflection point, so to speak? +I mean, I generally like to remain optimistic, but you know, I'll say, you know, in this +particular example, we're talking about flagrant violation of the Constitution. +I do believe that any government, at least historically, regardless of how a government +is formed, power tends to consolidate power, and of course, power corrupts, and so on and +so forth. +But I think what power corrupts really means is that any sort of entity, whether it's a +single person or an organization or whatever that has power, over a long enough period +of time, they want more power, like you never have enough power, and so the incentive is +to use your power to create more power, gain more resources, so on and so forth. +And so I think that, you know, that is generally the impetus for what causes declines in civilization, +and so, you know, America has had a great run, and we did a really good job putting +a lot of these laws in place at the inception of America, and those laws have staved off +the decline and the rise of various authoritarian regimes within the government, but, you know, +it's been several centuries, right? +It's only going to last for so long, I think, before there will be some sort of inflection +point, breaking point, whatever, and hopefully it can be peaceful rather than violent. +But this is one of the questions that I've been grappling with for a while, which is +that it seems like we are the frogs in the proverbial simmering pot that's, you know, +close to boiling, and, you know, every time one of these egregious new laws comes out, +I ask myself, you know, at what point will people say, "Oh, well, we're not going to +do that," because this is obedient, complacent, naive, you know, too busy living their lives +to pay attention, you know, just trying to survive because their purchasing power keeps +going down, you know, a million different variables at play, but is it the case that +there are so few of us who are even paying attention anymore that there's not going to +be a sufficient pushback? +My only, or at least my primary point of optimism of pushback, at least in the Bitcoin regulation +space, is the fact that Bitcoin has become so valuable and there are so many people and +organizations with so much money and resources on the line now that they're going to be more +willing to put resources into fighting the political apparatus. +But with regard to all of the other stuff that's infringing on our freedoms, I'm not +quite as optimistic. +Yeah, and it's interesting the way that you phrase that because it's almost, of course, +you are on Bitcoin Twitter, Lopp, so of course you've seen this meme, but basically, you +know, there's this guy cooking a barbecue and it's like, you know, it's Bitcoin or Slaver +or something like that. +And then the meme like says it like basically like, "That's cool. +Did you see the game over the weekend?" +And it's just it's almost as if so many people are still, how do I say, basically stuck in +the fiat matrix, like they're so blind to what's going on. +They're so distracted by the bread and circuses that it's like, yes, there's definitely, you +know, a group of us that are awakened, but we're definitely in a minority compared to, +you know, the rest of the populace that is just kind of like willingly, like kind of +it's what you said, they're being, you know, metaphorically boiled in this pot. +And they're like, "It's nice and warm in here and, you know, I can order Uber Eats and I +can watch Netflix from here and it's very nice." +You know, I think there's a few things going on, right. +On one hand, I've seen plenty of people speak out about the sort of homogenous nature of +a lot of us in the space, or in a more crass way to put it, a lot of Bitcoiners are, you +know, young to middle age white guys. +I would say that it's like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs things. +And I've seen similar stuff sort of in the libertarian space. +Or you, some might call it the sort of like weaponized autist space as well, when you +get to some of these fringe groups that are just thinking about the sort of the state +of existence differently and not agreeing with the status quo. +You know, I think that you have to be at a certain level of comfort and time and resources +to even be thinking about that stuff in the first place, much less to even have the level +of optimism that you can do anything about it and that you should even spend any of your +time thinking about it, talking about it. +So we certainly should recognize, I think, that we are privileged enough to be at the +level that we can have these types of more philosophical discussions. +But the next question is obviously, OK, talking about it is great, but what action can we +take? +And then that's where the questions get much more gnarly of like, do we do we fight the +system within the rules of the system or do we exit the system and try to fight it from +outside of the system? +And obviously with Bitcoin, that's it's great because it allows us to exit. +But we still have a lot of ties to the existing system. +And I think we should assume that the powers that be are going to put more and more pressure +on all of the choke points. +What are all the choke points? +I mean, it's basically all the custodians, all of the bridges from traditional finance. +And one of my bigger worries lately is the fact that over 80 percent of the Bitcoin and +all of the ETFs is held at Coinbase. +That's a single point of failure. +It's not great to think about the sort of extreme edge cases, attacks, things that could +happen if far too much of the Bitcoin supply gets into the hands of far too few people. +But I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. +Unfortunately, the incentives and the way that the system is set up tends to push things +towards centralization. +Yeah. +100 percent. +By the way, there's about 450 of you guys watching live. +So if you guys are enjoying the show so far, make sure to smash that like button. +It's a lot. +You mentioned the kind of the centralization of the custody of the Bitcoin ETFs, right? +All the Bitcoin that's being custodied with Coinbase. +I also heard a rumor that Brian Armstrong keeps it in his nightstand on a cold card. +And that's that's where it's that's where all the Bitcoin that. +But maybe it's just a rumor. +No, but seriously, I think, though, like what I'm seeing and one of the things that I've +run into, you know, being in Bitcoin for my eighth year is the specifically for the older +generation is the difficulty of of self custody. +It's something that you guys do incredibly. +I recommend Casa all the time that you guys make the the multisig aspect of it easy and +easy to use, where if you were if you were to set it up yourself, it becomes incredibly +kind of complicated in a way. +Right. +You guys have the two of three that you offer. +You guys have the three or five. +And not only with the haptic feedback when, you know, you sign and it makes a little nice +noise when you do the key check and all that stuff. +So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you create a a pleasant experience to take +self custody specifically for the older generation. +Now, my question to you is, do you see a world where people are taking self custody? +Because it almost seems like if they had a choice between the convenience aspect of it, +it's like, yeah, I got Bitcoin. +I have the BlackRock ETF. +This is great. +Right. +And then as Bitcoiners are like fighting this uphill battle, whereas in specifically in +my family, I'm like the Uncle Jim, like everyone has their Bitcoin in cold storage, but they +don't know how to access it. +They have to call me every time. +So, you know, is that a solvable problem? +Is that something that, you know, is that something that perhaps us Bitcoiners don't +really. +We haven't come to terms with the fact that human nature is human nature and people are +just going to sometimes just like convenience is convenience. +Right. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You know, this is one of the difficult things when it comes to having discussions, especially +around CASA and our design decisions and trade offs. +And a lot of the more. +And some of these absolutely correct that, you know, if you want the strongest possible +security model, if you want to actually benefit from all of the things that Bitcoin has to +offer, then you have to be your own bank. +You have to take custody and you have to take some modicum of responsibility when you do +that. +And this is certainly the biggest thing that we're fighting against. +And as you noted, you know, CASA has a lot of really cute little design quirks and aspects +and things that are meant to help engage the person and make the app as easy as possible. +And that's by design like we are not designed like a lot of other wallets out there. +We try to keep it as simple as possible. +And in many cases, it's and actually has, you know, potential foot guns and pitfalls +in there for novice users. +And we want to have them avoid that. +So, you know, we go for ease of use, safety and simplicity over pretty much everything +else. +And, you know, in a perfect world, yeah, I would love for everyone to be doing self-custody, +doing it on their own themselves without having to get help from anybody. +But once again, I think it comes back to the sort of issue of time and resources and what +are people willing to spend their time learning and doing. +So we basically try to bring down the amount of effort that is required to get yourself +into a self-custody setup. +And we kind of put in guardrails to make it hard for people to shoot themselves in the +foot. +You know, it's always going to be possible to shoot yourself in the foot if you have +custody of your keys. +But we just try to make it so that you basically have to shoot yourself multiple times before +you enter into a catastrophic loss. +But this is, I would say, our greatest enemy. +You know, from time to time, I'm sure you've seen on Bitcoin Twitter that there will be +beefs and stuff between various hardware and software companies and self-custody and stuff. +And it's always interesting to see the sort of different perspectives there. +And it should be very clear that our competitors, our enemies, are not other self-custody companies. +It's the custodians. +The self-custody companies should really be directing all of their fire at the custodians. +And how do you do that? +Well, unfortunately, we're competing against convenience. +And convenience, and this is one of my more, I guess, black pill perspectives on this, +is that over the past decade, it seems to me that humans tend to prefer and prioritize +convenience over everything else. +Obviously, there's some edge cases, and I am, you know, an edge case. +I don't fall into this. +A lot of the people watching don't fall into this. +But by and large, humans tend to take the path of least resistance to meet whatever +their objective is. +And so if the vast majority of people coming into Bitcoin are mainly looking at it as an +investment, then they're going to say, you know, what's the easiest, fastest, quickest +way for me to have financial exposure to Bitcoin as an investment? +And they're probably not going to go deeper into the rabbit hole and think about security +models and hedging against 6102 attacks and all the other things that us super paranoid +Bitcoin folks have been talking about. +So that's why it's, I think, tantamount for any sort of self-custody service, manufacturer, +provider, whatever, to put an extremely high amount of effort into their design and their +user experience to make it as dead simple as possible. +Because otherwise, what you end up with is a story that I've heard quite frequently is +even amongst a lot of people who get to the stage where they buy a hardware device, in +many cases, that hardware device just sits in their drawer unopened and they don't actually +take it out, set it up and much less move any funds to it because it's just it feels +like too much work, too much friction. +And it's too scary to take on that responsibility for a lot of people. +Yeah. +And that's something that, you know, I've I've unfortunately I've you know, because +we all come from it from the from and I'm sure Jameson, you fall into this category +right where you just you come to it from like the utopian vision. +It's like, oh, we have the tools now, right? +We have self-custody. +And it slowly starts to hit you right when, you know, you meet with your family or Thanksgiving +and then, you know, you're the Bitcoin, I'm not saying in my case is like I'm the +Bitcoin guy. +And then, you know, it's just like, OK, how are you doing, sister? +She's like, I have my I have I have I have the ledger, but I forgot the password. +And I'm like, OK, no problem. +Do you have the words? +She's like, what do you mean? +What words? +And I'm like, oh, right. +And it's just it's it's happened so many times. +And then it doesn't matter how many times you explain it to them. +And then that kind of leads me back to what you guys offer specifically with the three +of two, the two of three and the three of five, where in a way I don't I don't want +to you guys make it idiot proof essentially. +Right. +You guys make it extremely difficult for what you said for someone to shoot themselves in +the foot if, you know, they at least write, you know, secure some of their words. +Right. +I mean, two two of the two of the keys are relatively easy to recover the, you know, +the cost of recovery key and then the mobile key. +And then, you know, all you really need is just hopefully one of those twenty four words. +Right. +So. +Well, yeah, I mean, that's the nice thing about that two or three setup is even if they +if for some reason they don't store the seed phrase for the hardware device or they lose +it or whatever, then it's almost impossible to lose your mobile key because we do an encrypted +cloud backup of it. +And then, of course, the Kasa key has multiple redundant backups, so it's not going anywhere. +And so that's that's what it kind of comes down to is assuming the user is going to make +a lot of stupid mistakes and actually trying to design the product around the understanding +that people are human and people make mistakes. +This is where, you know, a lot of the wallets and products that are out there, I think, +are built by nerds for nerds and they aren't really. +They aren't putting. +A person off the street interact with all the different ways that they can screw it +up. +You know, that's that's one of our very important design philosophies when we're building stuff +is actually put non nerdy people in the driver's seat of the beta product and just watch them +fumble around with it. +This is kind of the level of convenience that you need to have in order for technology to +get adopted. +So let's travel back a few decades to the 90s. +And let's say we're cypherpunks and we're really excited because this PGP thing is pretty +good privacy has been put out there and it allows anybody with a computer to engage in +encrypted communications with with other parties and knowing that they can't be intercepted +even by nation states and military level hardware that can try to crack that encryption. +This is this is great. +Right. +And the crypto anarchy is right around the corner because the state has has been effectively +neutered and can no longer surveil all of our communications. +Well, that didn't happen. +And it's because PGP never had a good PGP probably never even got a fraction of a percent +of adoption across the world. +Now, obviously, I use it regularly, but it's incredibly difficult and I I don't even recommend +it to anyone else. +I figure you basically have to be an uber privacy nerd to be interested in sort of that +level of communications. +And if you care that much, then you'll probably be willing to jump through all of the hoops +to actually get it working. +But thankfully, and over the past few years, we've had much better secure communications +technology and apps coming out and they seem to be coming out faster and faster. +You know, I'm a big fan of Keat, for example, the whole punch protocol, like getting some +real peer to peer encrypted communications going on. +It's still got a fair amount of work to go. +To see it is that with the usability of any regular chat app, if you can use Telegram, +you can use Keat. +Yeah, 100 percent, I think you hit the nail on the head, because if the level of convenience +is not close to or it's you know, it's it's the human experience is the convenience aspect. +And you kind of see this with the you know, with the I'm a huge fan of kind of like the +rise of sovereign computing that we're seeing, right. +Which is so cool, right? +You know, it started with the Bitcoin node. +And now you're seeing all these other applications that are starting to build be built on top +of it. +And essentially, it's kind of the same thing. +But if the convenience aspect is not there, right, people are always going to pick the +cloud option because the cloud option is the convenient option, right? +It's the less friction option. +So yeah, it's it's it's interesting. +So I would I would ask I would ask this to you. +Do you ever see a world where Bitcoin self custody? +I wouldn't say goes completely mainstream. +I think there's a portion of the population that are always just going to, you know, they're +just they're just never going to go down that route. +But do you think that we'll ever get to a point where, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40% of +the population are, are actually, you know, holding their own keys. +And the reason I'm throwing those numbers out there is because I think that's when things +really start to change. +I think, you know, if you have, you know, 10, 20, 30% of the population is as like truly +sovereign individuals where the state can't just, you know, confiscate their wealth at +the flick of a switch. +I think things will change. +I think, you know, and perhaps this is like the, you know, Bitcoin utopian idea. +Perhaps this is like kind of the sovereign individual thesis that we all want to see +play out. +But, you know, do you think that we'll ever get to that point? +And then, you know, of course, your company is playing a major kind of role in this to +make self custody convenient, right? +Make self, make self custody accessible, I think is a good word as well. +That's tough. +I think that we should be looking of better incentive technology. +There's also just the scalability question, right? +So it seems to me like a more likely scenario, both from a technical scaling perspective +and from a sort of user responsibility perspective, is that something like the Fede model seems +to me like it's a more feasible path forward where, you know, the vast majority of people +aren't directly only controlling their keys, but they are outsourcing it to a sort of semi +trusted group of other people, you know, that, that is an improvement upon having a just +a single point of failure bank that can basically rug pull you and do everything. +But I think there's still a lot of work to be done. +Like we said, it's a complicated question to answer because it's a big world and different +people have different incentives and accessibility to systems that are more convenient. +So people who are in first world countries who have decent access to financial infrastructure +I think are going to be the laggards to adopt this technology just because the incentives +aren't there. +So, you know, watch Africa and watch some of these other nations where I think we're +going to see Bitcoin adoption accelerate faster than in the first world, or at least the adoption +that's happening in the first world is all financialized adoption through traditional +financial investment vehicles, which is not particularly interesting from a sovereignty +or cypherpunk perspective. +Yeah, yeah, no. +And I agree with that. +I think I tweeted this out actually a couple of weeks ago, which basically said like, I'm +more bullish on the adoption of Bitcoin in the developing world versus the adoption Bitcoin +in the developed world. +And it just because it not only convenience, but also the, the, what better incentive than +necessity, right? +If you know, if you live in a country with relatively stable fiat currency, again, are +you and, and the bread and circuses are strong and you have cash app and you have Venmo and +you have pen pal and you have Zelle, you know, what incentive do you have to try an alternative? +Right. +And I think, you know, if you live in a country like Venezuela, Argentina, you know, Nigeria, +like Africa, like what you said, like Africa, and I think you have the incentive to try +something new to try an alternative because the current system is so fundamentally broken +that you don't have a choice but to find, but to try something new. +Yeah, I mean, I spent my first couple of years when I was interested in Bitcoin, extolling +the virtues of this new protocol and, you know, trying to convert people, but I gave +up after a year or two because I realized I was only getting like a 1% conversion rate. +I was, I was basically preaching to a bunch of people who didn't see the need for it because +we had a stable system where people's money wasn't getting inflated away and my claims +that the money was going to get inflated the way, you know, basically came off as like +conspiracy theorists, even though there was so much history to show that it happens. +It was once again, the frogs simmering in the pot of water and me yelling at them that +it was going to start boiling. +So, you know, people didn't actually take notice until just the past few years when +it finally caught up with them. +So yeah, you go where the incentives are. +That's my time and you're trying to convince people. +We just need to keep making the products better so that when people realize that they do need +it, that they don't feel overwhelmed when they try to use it. +Yeah. +And I think, I think that's, you know, you hit the nail on the head, right? +I'm so, I'm so sick and tired of trying to, and then they think you're crazy, right? +So it's like, oh yeah, like this is, you know, my crazy, you know, Bitcoin brother or whatever. +And you know, of course they always remember the first time you told them about it and +the number go up, does its thing and they're like, wow, okay, maybe this was a good idea. +Right. +But yeah, I'm at that point. +I know my, my co-host is as well. +He's super jaded. +He's like, you know what? +I just, I don't care anymore. +You know, we cover this, we talk about this, but we've reached this point where it's like, +like, you know, I can show you the door, what's the Satoshi quote, the famous Satoshi quote. +Like, you know, if you don't get it, you don't understand that, I don't have time to explain +it to you. +Something along those lines. +I totally butchered the phrase, but, but, but, but yeah, you know, I've definitely got +to that point. +So, okay, great. +So a couple of questions for you. +So we're kind of entering into this new era in Bitcoin's history. +So I mean, what do I mean by that? +You have the approval of the ETFs, right? +This large amount of Bitcoin held by Coinbase, which is just 16102 order away from the U.S. +government. +You have the kind of the validation or the vindication of the using Bitcoin as an alternative +to cash on the public company level. +You have Bitcoin entering the kind of nation state discussion with what Naeem Bukele is +doing it, what Naeem Bukele is doing in El Salvador. +So glad that he made his reserves public, by the way, he posted that address. +I think that's a great step in the right direction. +So you know, it's almost as if, and Lop, you've been here a lot longer than I have, right? +But it's almost as if, you know, Bitcoin is growing up in a way, right? +You know, it's almost like as if it's, it's, it's heading into this next phase. +So you know, what does this look like from your perspective? +What what are the next five years look like? +Well, so it's all about the game theory and the incentives, right, is all the stuff that +you just mentioned, it's, it's new, and yet it's not new. +Really, the difference is that the level of players who are entering the game is orders +of magnitude greater in terms of wealth and power. +But they're doing it for the same reasons that we did it 10 plus years ago, which was +that, you know, we wanted to exit the system that was corrupted, and that had rules that +couldn't be relied upon. +And and so we basically opted out, and we did so with whatever money we had available +to us. +And, you know, it just took a long time for a bunch of relatively poor, autistic nerds +to, you know, come together and build the system up. +And you get more people interested in it and understanding like why it could be beneficial +to them. +And and now we're playing in the big leagues. +And so we're, we're at the sort of global corporation slash small nation state level. +And I think this is where things get really interesting, right, is because the small nation +states, especially those that don't have their own currency, and are basically pegged some +other nation states currency, that is a massive point of control. +And if you're a nation state in that position, then you would probably be pretty interested +in exiting from that particular arrangement as well. +So I think that it's only a matter of time that basically, you know, what happened with +with me and a bunch of the other early adopters where, you know, we would adopt Bitcoin, learn +about it, use it, understand its pros and cons, and sort of hone our narratives and +our pitches of why other people should be interested in it. +That same thing is now playing out. +But you've got Michael Saylor going around and pitching it from a sort of business perspective +to a lot of his billionaire buddies. +You've got Bukele going around, you know, pitching it to other leaders of nation states +that are in similar precarious positions and basically saying, look, we don't have to play +by the rules of the Bank of International Settlements. +We don't have to play by the rules of the Federal Reserve. +We have other options now. +So let's explore those options. +So that is why I think there is going to be another massive wave of adoption. +You could call it institutional level of adoption or whatever. +But it's just more people entering the game, and they're doing so because they understand +that it's beneficial to them. +And this could also it goes all the way back to the original Satoshi quote of like, you +know, it might be worth getting a little bit just in case it catches on. +I mean, absolutely. +Drop mic moment there. +Does it surprise you? +Does it surprise you that Bitcoin has come this far? +Did you know from initially that it was, you know, of course, the incentive structures +there. +Right. +Bitcoin just has superior incentives. +I truly believe that's why it's winning the way it is. +And I think that, you know, government money, fiat money relies a tremendous amount on coercion. +If I were to make a bet on, you know, who's going to win that race, incentives versus +coercion, I'm going to put my money on incentives every single time. +Right. +Usually when you have to kind of build a wall to keep people, it usually tends not to work +out for you. +So did you know? +Did you know that it was it was going to, you know, did you know that did you have some +type of like intuition, some type of gut feeling that, you know, Bitcoin had the potential +to reach the heights that it has reached in a considerably short amount of time as well? +No, I definitely did not expect the acceleration. +I remember, you know, when I first got on the Mount Gox back in the day and I was like, +I should get me some of these bitcoins that I saw it as a like 30 to 40 year type of investment +of like, I don't know that this thing is necessarily going to become much more valuable, but I +do have confidence that the rules and the incentives of the system will make it not +become as less valuable as the fiat currencies, as you know, just looking at that like hundred +year time scale value of the dollar chart, I was relatively certain that that was not +going to happen with Bitcoin. +But I certainly didn't expect the heights that we've gotten to already so quickly. +And so, you know, from from that perspective, in some ways, it feels like Bitcoin might +have kind of gone over its skis a bit in the sense that I don't think that we have improved +the protocol, the scalability, the privacy, so on and so forth. +I don't I don't think that we've quite got the protocol to the level that we can have +the mass adoption that we would all like to see. +And and I think that's going to become a particularly interesting contentious issue in coming years +like you're already seeing discussion happen around it. +And some people are trying to turn it into like another scaling debates of small blocks +versus big blocks versus layered development and so on. +And it's going to be a really complicated road to travel down, I think, because we are +going to have to ask ourselves a lot of questions around what tradeoffs we believe are important, +because, you know, if we if we continue down the path going right now, there's a take here +on the technological progression scale. +And my main thing is I want us to explore as many paths as possible, you know, trying +to sort of optimize for the potential outcomes of what can happen with Bitcoin, because, +you know, how many, I think, theorized very early on that Bitcoin would basically turn +into another type of gold where it was all held by a small number of banks and that basically +those banks would issue IOUs and stuff. +And that's one potential dystopian future. +If we don't continue to improve the scalability and really what people can do with self custody. +But I think we're also going to see a lot of hybrid and new types of models, especially +on second layer networks, where it might be a lot more difficult to reason about what +is your level of sovereignty on these networks. +That's kind of where we are right now, I think, with a lot of debate happening around, like, +what is a real layer two network or what should be considered safe enough to store your funds +on a layer two? +Or is there any layer two that's safe enough for a long term store of value? +A lot of open questions and a lot of work remaining to be done. +Yeah. +A hundred percent. +And I agree. +And, you know, the and again, I'm going to use this word. +I'm approaching it from a convenience standpoint at the the not the self custody aspect, but +from the my just my lightning wallet. +Right. +And I remember the I don't want to say it was a rug pull, but just Wallet of Satoshi +deciding that they're going to leave the U.S. and, you know, I had a couple hundred dollars +on Wallet of Satoshi and I was using that as like my daily driver for for lightning +custodial wallet. +Right. +I had a little bit of an improvement of trust there. +Then they rug pulled in the U.S. +I'm like, oh, I called a good friend of mine, Ben Perrin, like, hey, man, like, what do +I use? +You know, like he's like, you have to use Phoenix. +But however, you have to send a large amount first. +You can't just send a small transaction. +I use I use my wallet for a while, had a terrible had a terrible experience in a certain situation +with with with Moon or Moon. +I don't know how to pronounce it. +And then I finally kind of ended up with using the primal and then the get Albi and then +you connect the get Albi wallet with with the blue wallet. +And then that kind of creates a good experience. +Then strike. +Yeah. +But almost nobody is going to do that. +No one's going to do that. +And it's like highly complicated. +Right. +Like it's not an easy like kind of step. +So and then, of course, like I think it's like semi it's it's it's it's it's self custodial, +I think they make you write down 12 words, but you don't really know what's going on +in the back end. +So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, like, you know, the current state of lightning, +the current state of second layer solutions after Wall of Satoshi left the US is not in +a good place right now. +Like, it is not in a good place. +I think strike, you can make the argument that they have a, you know, relatively good +lightning experience. +But it's like, OK, so now my lightning wallet is an on ramp like that's pretty crazy. +So I want to get your like. +So I want you to take on that. +And then I hear that you mentioned Fedelec and Ben was actually showing me or we were +talking about Fedelec and kind of like the things that are moving forward in that. +And I kind of want to join a minute like I got invited to one. +So that seems really cool. +And like no one really knows each other's identities. +And I think that's super cool. +So what is the current status in your opinion on second layer Bitcoin? +Do you see do you see a hope for this kind of getting to a point where it's convenient +and accessible enough for people to just, you know, kind of download it and access it? +There's some regulatory hurdles like we saw with Wall of Satoshi. +Do you ever get do you ever see it, do you ever you ever see it getting to that point? +It's certainly possible. +So I am somewhat optimistic because it seems like there has been an acceleration in development +of second layer Bitcoin networks, though I think a lot of these are also somewhat questionable +in nature of how permissionless they're going to be. +More along the lines of like the potential impact of better second layer networks is +that there seems to have been renewed interest in discussion and making some opcode changes +to the Bitcoin base protocol, which could potentially greatly accelerate the deployment +of some of these second layer networks. +I think I also wrote up about a year ago, I did a blog post about spider chain, which +is another. +Think of it as like a different type of game theory and pegging mechanism to create a second +layer networks. +I don't think that they've actually launched on main net yet. +I think they might have a test net, but mostly going back to what I said earlier, from a +development perspective, I just want to see more experimentation, like that's the only +way that we're going to continue to try to optimize amongst the many, many different +potential paths that this ecosystem can take or those paths. +And we have to look around and then debate the merits and the trade-offs of the different +technologies that we could deploy off of Bitcoin and try to understand, how does this help +the network? +How might it weaken the network? +What are we actually introducing? +And what's it worth to us, trade off in terms of being able to get hopefully more adoption, +hopefully more self-sovereign adoption of people actually interacting with these protocols +directly rather than through a third party. +Lightning is a very interesting thing that you can easily spend hours talking about the +merits of, and I think one of the issues that has come up with Lightning is just due to +its complexity, that once again, people seeking convenience and wanting to get a lot of that +complexity abstracted away, it leads them once again to centralized custodial solutions. +And I have spoken about Lightning at length, including from the sort of node operation +perspective because you know, Kasa, we actually had one of the first plug and play Lightning +nodes back in like 2019 or so, and we discontinued it because it was quite honestly, it was a +great way to lose money as a business. +It was such a high support load basically for getting, for helping people manage their +own networked hardware within their home environments, within a network that we had no insight into, +and then all of the different things that can go wrong, lots and lots of points of failure +within that entire hardware and software stack. +So I can understand why so many people used Wallet of Satoshi because you didn't have +to deal with channel management and liquidity and all of these other things that I was saying +from the very beginning, like if people even need to know what a Lightning channel is, +it's never going to be a mainstream thing. +So one way or another, that type of complexity has to get abstracted away. +100%. +100%. +Jameson, I do want to be respectful of your time and it seems like we are getting to the +top of the hour. +So I want to give you this opportunity to our audience, about 805 people watching live +right now at the moment. +If you have any last words for our audience in regards to our conversation, in regards +to the future of Bitcoin, in regards to Casa, what would those last words be? +Well, you know, I focus on education. +I think that that's probably the best that we can hope for. +You don't need to be an evangelist, but I think that you should at least be able to +explain some of the concepts of these systems fairly simply and do so in such a way that +you know your audience. +If you're talking to someone who is not particularly nerdy and you're talking about all the cool +technical aspects of Bitcoin, then you're just going to lose them. +There are probably at least a dozen different ways that people might be interested in Bitcoin. +And I think one of the sort of superpowers of a Bitcoin evangelist, if you want to call +them that, is the ability to ask a few questions, understand what that person's life is like +and what they care about, what might trigger them. +And then if you can find one of those things that they care about, you tie in the positive +aspects of these systems to get them to understand why they might want to at least put some time +into researching it, study it. +Tell people to study Bitcoin rather than buy Bitcoin. +And that's one of my favorite things to say when people ask me, like, should I be buying +Bitcoin? +I say, you know, if you have to ask, the answer is no. +It means you need to go back and you need to study it more until you're convinced that +you cannot possibly live without having some Bitcoin. +Amen to that. +Amen to that. +Well, Lopp, it's been Jameson, it's been an honor to have you on the show for the first +time. +Hopefully, we'll get you back on the show in the future again as well. +Guys, you can follow Lopp at Lopp on X and go check out Lopp.net. +So many resources on your website that I've used in the past. +My personal favorite are the stress tests, the stress tests of the seed plates and stuff +like that. +That was really cool that you did that. +So anyways, Jameson, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. +Thanks for having me. +Appreciate it. +All right, guys. +That was our show. \ No newline at end of file